Posts by Had Enough

19

FINAL PEDOPHIILE POLL RESULTS

by Amazing in

jw
friends

final pedophile poll results .

important note: there is no means at this time to truly ascertain the total number of pedophiles in the usa or in any specific group, such as the jws.

estimates and extrapolations are about the best anyone can do in an attempt to get a handle on the potential scope of the problem.

Had Enough

Hello Amazing:

Thanks for all your work at presenting this picture for us.

It truly is mind-boggling for me to think of my former haven of peace-loving, righteous, purity-seeking fellow worshippers as having even one pervert among us, let alone these staggering numbers.

I just couldn't fathom the WTS ignoring this for so long.

After reading jst2laws post when he said:

I’m inclined to belief it is more their arrogant superiority over all other authority, and a disastrous attempt to maintain confidentiality in cases where a sinner appears to be repentant...It seems most of these guys really believe, as I did, the organization’s wisdom is superior to the world’s, and therefore they are above the world’s rules.

...then the lights went on for me. I can relate to that, as that was my ingrained belief as well. I remember believing, as I was taught, that we are far superior to worldly authorities and don't have to obey them when they interfere with God's laws. So I can see the org thinking it is their God-given, superior right to deal with his people when they sin, not the worldly authorities', and their god-given right to keep it confidential when they see fit.

Yes what arrogance!

Amazing: I thank you for your added explanation of your and silentlambs motives for exposing this gross misconduct of the WTS. I understood from the start that your(pl) motives were not to "get the WTS" but rather to force them to change their policies, to protect the children and not just how the JWs and the world see them - their IMAGE.

Even though some of these statements have probably been made before scattered in various posts, I'm glad that others who criticize your(pl) efforts can now see it stated emphatically, in print, all together in one post, what the real motives behind this exposure are.

Knowing these motives adds so much credibility to the whole picture should make it all the harder to ignore.

We, here, are not supporting you "hysterically without proof or any facts" as some have claimed, but sincerely believe that the exposure will have only proveable facts, and we wish this exposure to accomplish the same things you do.

Had Enough

11

August km re media reports

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

not sure if this has been highlighted on the board, but in the august km there's an interesting paragraph in the front page article "you are a theatrical spectacle":.

sometimes the media publish reports about the activities of jehovah's people.

while we appreciate good reports that are factual and fair in dealing with our work, we also expect bad reports to be spread by our detractors from time to time.

Had Enough

Hello expatbrit:

Perfectly typical, I must say. [8>] Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see the WTS explanation also to be "this persecution is just another fulfillment of prophecy of the signs of the end, just as the faithful and discreet slave has been warning us...we're even much closer to the end than ever before".

As Ozzie noted, should we laugh or cry at the statement:

To honesthearted observers it becomes clear that we are the true disciples of Jesus Christ."

So to be considered "honesthearted", they will have to see themselves still as the "true disciples" instead of thinking that there is something wrong with the org after being made aware of the "proof" of their blunders.

I shudder to think how many will actually blindly and numbly nod their heads at that statement or any other lame excuse that will certainly be pushed after this exposure.

Had Enough

63

GB Admits It Has No Answers, Blood

by Maximus in

jw
friends

"in contrast with humans, who have a limited life span, jehovah never feels pressured by time to reveal his secrets prematurely.

this fact should prevent us from becoming impatient when certain bible questions cannot presently be explained to our satisfaction.

"modesty on the part of the faithful and discreet slave class, commissioned to provide the christian household with food at the proper time, prevents it from presumptuously running ahead and wildly speculating about things that are still unclear.

Had Enough

Thank you Maximus for this well-presented post.

When the borg says

Jehovah never feels pressured by time to reveal his secrets prematurely.

I cannot understand why God would have a "secret" about how blood is to be or not to be administered in medical instances.

Why if it was such an important issue with Him, why would He allow so many of His faithful worshipers to die because of the first "secret" He revealed, of absolutely no blood, only to change it recently to allow certain fractions which would now save lives?

What possible reason would a loving God have to wait for several decades and watch thousands of His faithful worshipper die, before He decided to now reveal it was OK for life-saving fractions?

Were those who died because of not being allowed, by the "revealed secret" of God to the FDS, to receive a necessary blood transfusion, of no consequence to God?

Is it OK that they died because God does not need to be pressured into revealing His new secret of allowed fractions until He's ready?

Or are we to be consoled by the explanation that if they die faithful to God, He will remember them in the resurrection?

Is that resurrection supposed to console children, husbands, wives, mothers, fathers, and so on who have lost a dear one too soon?

If it was because the FDS, being imperfect men, didn't get it right in the first place, why did God let that happen when it would be obvious to Him that this error was costing people their lives?

I can't believe a God of love was that needy of assurance of His worshippers dedication to Him that He needed to see thousands die to prove their faithfulness.

These are only the tip of the iceburg of questions I have (and I know I'm not alone).

Of course the answer is that the FDS claim of divine revelations to them in "new light" is completely pathetic, even if some of them sincerely believe this is God's way.

Yes as you said Maxiumus, their explanation is galling and patronizing, and it will be interesting to see how they try to doublespeak their way out of further exposure of their misrepresentation of themselves in this issue and in the issue of their stand on molesters in the congregations.

Had Enough

113

Silentlambs and Signifiers that Signify Nothing

by dunsscot in

call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.

that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.

i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.

Had Enough

Dan:

You quoted Todd and agreed with him when he said of you:

I don't think he's apologizing for pedos or even the Society's means of (not) dealing with them. He's just asking for something a bit more concrete than a simple accusation and it's resulting lynch mob mentality. I think it's a worthy request

Please....don't think that we are all of such low "lynch mob" mentality that we will settle for only a simple accusation ourselves. To fight so strongly against this cause without even first hearing the evidence does a great injustice to those victims suffering in silence for so many years. Put yourself in the place of a parent whose child accuses someone and exhibits evidence of being molested only to be silenced by unqualified men following orders from the WTS. Could you then protect and support this org?

Several of the elders in one previous congregation I attended barely finished grade 8 education...How can they be expected to have the insight to deal with such complex issues? I know that wisdom doesn't always have to come from a book...some have a gift of reasoning...but I know from experience that most uneducated men do not know how to treat people with deep emotional or physical problems.

We here all want the whole truth... the real truth to come out. It serves no purpose to any of us to have the WTS fall because of lies. The REAL truth is for what we all so desperately strive.

Injustices are possible and what we all hope for is the accused to be proven guilty by compelling evidence only, not emotion and twisting of words.

Also:

When you say:

I love taking in a nice play or even going to a theme park every now and then. I'm just convinced that the good life does not reside at the bottom of a scotch bottle

Well my dear...so do I, and I'm positive I'm not the only one here on this board that feels the same way. What I object to is your seeming generalization of those of us posting here as boozing, promiscuous degenerates. So what if some like to indulge in the old scotch bottle and some lead a different lifestyle that what you or I or many others of us prefer. Some even just joke about it to have fun, but don't live like that.

To insinuate that we here have a mob mentality that peers at the bottom of a scotch bottle, insults me to the very core.

Please before dismissing all that has been said about the upcoming exposure of the WTS, wait and take the time to hear all evidence. To downplay what some have expressed as their own experience, is an injustice to the years of pain and suffering they have gone through. Don't so easily dismiss their outcries until you have at least listened to their "proof".

Had Enough

42

Disfellowship?????????????????????

by tattoogrl333 in

jw
friends

today's study topic included disfellowship.

i'm a little confused i was told that the only way you can be disfellowshipped was if you did something you knew went agains jehovah and would not repent for it.

but the only person you can repent to is jehovah......... then i was told that the elders can however "keep the flock pure" b/c if jehovah is not happy with the congregation he can take his holy spirit away.

Had Enough

Hello YHWHWho:

Welcome to this board. Thank you for telling your story on this painful subject. It just breaks my heart to read these kind of horror stories over and over again...each one seeming worse that the last. My heart goes out to you and your family.

Your story is so sad on how the WTS stand on df'ing simply tears apart families. Life is too short to have to go this kind of pain.

My family situation is somewhat similar except its my da'd son who is in your shoes with his elder dad, my ex-husband. I am inactive and I won't avoid or shun my son. He is my family, my child, my only son, who treats me with the utmost respect and love.

His father, like yours, is the one losing out the most, since my son has little regard for anyone who would turn their back on a blood relative, their own flesh and blood son. I have the most precious relationship with my darling granddaughter and feel so sad for, and yet angry at, my son's dad who won't see him, but wants to see her, if he (my son) will go and sit in the bedroom while they visit. Needless to say, my son and his wife will have nothing to do with this arrangement.

What a sad excuse for an organization claiming to serve God. My son does not hate God nor preach badness against Him. He just has no use for the WTS who claims to be God's organization but has so many added rules and regulations above what the Bible says, just like the pharisees.

I hope you can find some inner peace. This kind of thing can eat away at you if you let it. Coming here and "talking it out" really helps. I know!

Had Enough

42

Disfellowship?????????????????????

by tattoogrl333 in

jw
friends

today's study topic included disfellowship.

i'm a little confused i was told that the only way you can be disfellowshipped was if you did something you knew went agains jehovah and would not repent for it.

but the only person you can repent to is jehovah......... then i was told that the elders can however "keep the flock pure" b/c if jehovah is not happy with the congregation he can take his holy spirit away.

Had Enough

Hello tattoogirl:

I am so glad you are alert enough to be asking questions.

This is a very important issue for anyone to look deeply into before one makes any committment to the WTS. Once baptized, a JW can be df'd for any number of WTS reasons...being repentant does not keep one from being df'd. I'm sure you have seen that in the many responses you've already received and I can add myself to the statistics although I also lived through the humiliation for a year to be reinstated.

To be brief, I'd like to recommend the threads on the JUSTICE series posted by Amazing. If you look at the top right of your screen and click onto "search". Then type in the word JUSTICE as the "search for" subject and under "limit to" click onto 3 months. You will see several pages of topices entitled "JUSTICE #1" through to JUSTICE #14 or so. Each one of these threads carries an experience of an elder with judicial committees and disfellowshipping cases.

You will find it quite an eye-opener to read each one. This man wouldn't lie about these things. He has no reason to. He left the org. because of these type of things going on and couldn't stomach it anymore. Please take the time to click onto each one of the JUSTICE #s.

Many JWs will give you the reasons already stated for df'ing, but careful analysis of the context of the scriptures they use to back up the casting out and shunning rules show a different meaning for the scriptures. I'll post more on that later if this thread still keeps going on.

For now, it looks like you have plenty to consider so far.

Had Enough

113

Silentlambs and Signifiers that Signify Nothing

by dunsscot in

call me a neopositivist, a semi-verificationist or semi-falsificationist, but the claims made by "silentlambs" reminds me of the shakespearean line that was quoted in the creator book published by the wtbts.

that is, the contentions of silentlambs seem like much "sound and fury" that in truth signify nothing.

i am of course referring to the supposed dateline show and the claims made about some members of the gb of jehovah's witnesses.

Had Enough

Dan:

I wasn't going to bother to answer any of your posts, or read them for that matter, simply because your attitude of superiority oozes out of your words and that, to me, has the effect of the sound of fingernails scratching on a chalkboard. Lovely sound isn't it? Frankly most of us don't care about whose words you are constantly quoting. Do you have an original thought at all?

I do hate sounding nasty, but you are a most irritating fellow and hopefully, if you've been told that often enough, it will sink in.

I decided to answer you anyway because you said:

If we're just going to accept every case of alleged abuse that comes along without any compelling evidence, what procedure would you implement to protect the innocent accused?

That would be a concern of mine as well but I'm sure the justice system is not going to just slap, all those accused, in jail without "compelling evidence". The courts do not hold to the " two witnesses" requirement of the borg. and many accused molestors have been investigated and proven guilty. Therefore I'm sure there will be enough "compelling evidence" for the courts to accept the testimonies of the victims coming forward.

Btw back to your vocabulary....I've personally known JWs who have left the truth because of elders who flaunted their vocabulary and "superior" knowledge as you do. I know that doesn't say much for their faith but that was just the "proverbial straw" that was the final breaker for them.

Imagine how difficult it would be for you to listen to an adult with the vocabulary of a 2 year old give a talk. Personally....that's how annoying your spoutings are to me and by the sounds of many other posters, I am not alone.

However, you replied to someone saying:

:If, someday, the WT ideology crashes for you. We will be here.:
Thanks for the sincere offer. I really don't know how much help I could receive from this board if I needed it, however.

I'm not quite sure how you meant that. If you sincerely meant that you didn't think you would be welcomed here if that happened to you, you are totally wrong. You would be accepted by us without our rubbing dirt in your face. That's how we are here.

HOWEVER...if you were saying that no one here could be capable of giving any effective help needed...then again you are wrong. The people here have huge hearts and would welcome you back to give you the support and encouragement and knowledge you would need from your crash.

"That's all I have to say 'bout that"

Had Enough

7

HOT - New York State Law - Affects Pedophiles!

by Amazing in

jw
friends

hello all: this is a new york assembly bill.

that is why it is preceded by an "a" in the bill number.

also, new york has passed several related bills protecting children, especially against abuse and violence.

Had Enough

Hello Amazing:

What great news. Thanks for keeping us all informed.

I'm sure that the extension of years will bring many more skeletons out of the closet that have been silenced for years, as the truth is exposed.

I personally saw the effect that a book written by a former Catholic priest exposing the hidden facts of abuses by priests had on some Catholics I knew and it was intrumental in them leaving the Catholic Church and becoming JWs. Now what are they going to do when these facts of hidden JW abuse become public?

I'm eagerly waiting to see the truth be known so that, first and foremost, these victims can be feel vindicated and that others who are totally unaware (like I was) of these atrocities going on for so long, can remove their blinders and see the real truth of the rest of the org's teachings.

Hi Tina:(((hugs)))
The website for Bill's candles is:
http://www.triplescent.com/home.asp

Had Enough

9

DFing, DAing, and apostasy

by troubled in

jw
friends

i have a question involving disassociating, disfellowshipping, and apostasy.

particularly daing.. the bible say where someone comes to you and does not bring "this teaching" or is an unrepentent practicer of gross sin, never let them into your homes or greet him; remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

and this is the scriptural basis used for shunning persons who are df'd or da'd.. but my question is this: when it says if someone comes to you and doesn't bring "this teaching," what specifically does "this teaching" refer to?

Had Enough

Hello troubled:

I've been following your posts as much as I could this past week but have often been too busy to form a decent reply.

Even now I can't give you any more of a reply than to direct you to a couple of websites that I found most helpful when wrestling with this issue. I've been where you are now and have spent many hours searching for answers that make sense.

I hope you can find some direction from the info from the above posters and from the following sites I have saved for my own references.

Scriptural Discussion on 2 John 5-11 and 2 Cor. 5:1-13
http://www.escapefromwatchtower.com/friends.html

Several discussions and links at
http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/oversikt?Kategori=DOCTRINE6

Interesting discussion on subject

http://www.xjw.com/shunning.html

I hope these help for now. There's more but I have to log off again.

Had Enough

20

A Chinese Meal with Fred Franz

by VM44 in

jw
friends

near the beginning of the book, "the orwellian world of jehovah's.

witnesses," one of the authors gives a personal experience where.

he and others were treated by fred franz to a meal at a chinese.

Had Enough

Hello Kismet:

Its good to hear from you again.

When you described your experience with Fred Franz's generosity, I can understand your reluctance to "bad mouth" him and others who perhaps displayed a "good trait". It really helps us to see that yes, with all the bad we've heard about, there is a good side to him too. It helps me to be able to accept your thoughts, but only to a point.

I hope you can understand also where most people, who do bad mouth him and others of the GB, are coming from.

Those who hold him and others of the GB in contempt, do so because of the bad effect the actions of these men has had on their lives personally and the lives of countless others due to their heavy-handedness in causing people to obey without question. These men had long been far removed from the "real world" and yet their decisions affecting our everyday lives were passed on to us, and were held up in high regard as coming from God himself.

You know the reasons you left Bethel...you saw things first hand before many of us could figure out just what was causing our doubts and feelings.

I'm glad though to have all sides presented to us to make a fair judgement of him and others who are being held accountable for the pain and suffering of many in the org. You are presenting facts that need to be considered to be just and to give equal consideration to, just like Maximus is doing in his plea to COs and DOs to present info so all sides of the abuse issue can be considered.

As always, I enjoy your mature outlook on so many issues needing to be ironed out.

Hope we can have a nice chat again. The last one was too short.

Cheers
Had Enough